What is the Undreaming?

[Miral]

It's not just Gordon I meant: Benrime, Zoe, Crow... They all suck! ALL of them! I mean... Why didn't it ever occur to any of them to just give her a hug? ^..^

Crow did give her a hug, didn't he? And maybe the others were too afraid that she'd stab them.

[AstralTraveller]

It's not just Gordon I meant: Benrime, Zoe, Crow... They all suck! ALL of them! I mean... Why didn't it ever occur to any of them to just give her a hug? ^..^

April's been like that for years. She had more than enough time to alienate or at least discourage everyone, didn't she?
Nobody, not even herself had the faintest idea what she actually needed. I'm quite certain that she was far beyond the 'hug' level. The only thing that seemed to work for her to any extent is that she met someone who challenged her in some fundamental ways. Too bad that that someone turned out to be a reproductive organ of the female persuasion...

Why not?

Well, like this?
A: Hey, nice bushes and trees!
G: Gee thanks! (blushes)

Not very Guardian-ish, is it? I mean, he can be vain to the point of showing off with his new furniture (his creation), but suggesting that the furniture is new while it's actually a remake - that'd be quite petty, wouldn't it?

You're forgetting there's no time in Storytime :P

Ah yes, that crops up quite often. It's not exactly true though. When Westhouse arrived, the Vagabond was urging him to get the f*** out of the realm, and then the Undreaming made its (his? her?) appearance. It suggests that there was a finite amount of something I call "time" for lack of a better word, in which Westhouse could have beat it and not put the entire world in danger. So there is time - it may pass quite differently there, but it does exist.


Also, it just occured to me. When the Undreaming was approaching Westhouse, he wasn't screaming "No! No! No!" too desperately, was he? I mean, I'd be going "no" like that if the cat was about to go to the toilet on the carpet, but if some dark tentacles of unknown origin were catching my legs, I'd certainly put more enthusiasm into my complaints. So what do you think, is it only bad acting, or does it have some significance?

[Skizzo]

Maybe he's too vain?

Now come on

In Quna's defence: he does seem rather insistent on not wearing any pants.

Well, like this?
A: Hey, nice bushes and trees!
G: Gee thanks! (blushes)

This is a highly disturbing remark in the context of what I just said...

I honestly don't think there have been many people in Storytime, mostly because of Vagabond's reaction, which is: "What the hell? How the hell did you get here?", if there had been people again, there had to be something like: "Oh no, not this shit again!" or "Don't you people ever quit?" Just my two cents ^..^

Well yes, if people were popping up every week, sometimes in small groups demanding a guided tour, he would have said that. With one miscreant each century or so - his reaction is just about OK.

Ah yes, that crops up quite often. It's not exactly true though. When Westhouse arrived, the Vagabond was urging him to get the f*** out of the realm, and then the Undreaming made its (his? her?) appearance. It suggests that there was a finite amount of something I call "time" for lack of a better word, in which Westhouse could have beat it and not put the entire world in danger. So there is time - it may pass quite differently there, but it does exist.

Well, the Storytime is supposed to exist outside of time. There is nothing said about the way time passes in the realm itself. If time itself didn't exist in the Storytime, then things would get pretty complicated for us to follow. It would also make an awesome scene for a discussion between the Vagabond and Abnaxus!

What he said ^..^ In Dreamfall every single being is going precisely the WRONG way about getting her less depressed, don't know what's up with that ^..^

Well, it could be that they're holding on to the idea that if you push a person enough, she starts pushing back. Although I doubt all of them had a meeting deciding to go around it this way.

[Miral]

And that's the point when we suspect it yet again: he might not be acting very Guardian-ish at all. In fact, when he says "I'm pleased to see you. Pleased, and surprised." It already sounds suspicious. Aren't his emotions supposed to be locked away? Adrian said that when he was a Guardian, there was nothing that existed for him but the Balance.

I'm not sure I'd read too much into that -- even robots and Spock often use similar terms. Whether it's our own lack of ability in imagining how someone emotionless would react, or if our language forces them to use emotion-loaded words for emotion-free concepts, I don't know. For example: "pleased and surprised" imply emotion, but can stem from non-emotion -- "pleasure" would mean that he saw some benefit to her being there (which would make sense if he needed to tell her something, although that doesn't appear to be the case), while "surprise" is obvious -- he just wasn't expecting her to turn up. Neither of these are necessarily emotional; both can be explained in pure logic.

[AstralTraveller]

Nobody can EVER be beyond the hug level, hug level is a universal one and has a wide range of effect depending on both quantity and quality

We-ell, I think we're at a dead end here

Exactly!

And that's the point when we suspect it yet again: he might not be acting very Guardian-ish at all. In fact, when he says "I'm pleased to see you. Pleased, and surprised." It already sounds suspicious. Aren't his emotions supposed to be locked away? Adrian said that when he was a Guardian, there was nothing that existed for him but the Balance.
But then again... there's that bloody disc with differences -..-

I'm not sure I'd read too much into that -- even robots and Spock often use similar terms. Whether it's our own lack of ability in imagining how someone emotionless would react, or if our language forces them to use emotion-loaded words for emotion-free concepts, I don't know. For example: "pleased and surprised" imply emotion, but can stem from non-emotion -- "pleasure" would mean that he saw some benefit to her being there (which would make sense if he needed to tell her something, although that doesn't appear to be the case), while "surprise" is obvious -- he just wasn't expecting her to turn up. Neither of these are necessarily emotional; both can be explained in pure logic.

I'm with Miral here. I do agree there's something weird going on with Gordon, but not from the emotional perspective.

*sigh* Still I'm not buying that.

Arguments, please! I also rewatched the Zoe / Vagabond scene, and time was mentioned there also. It does seem to exist in Storytime, although maybe not in the same way as in a normal world.

He reacts the way one could only do in a dream ^..^

Really? You, for instance, are more controlled in your dreams than in reality?

And this reminds me of my old theory: that maybe Brian was not sent there "the whole", but only his dream self, forced out of his body and thrown out into the Storytime and the Arcadia. It's not like he would guess if that were the case. The scene of his "traveling" definitely can pass as someone's... umm... "soul/spirit/whatever the hell resides in there" coming out of the body... *runs to re-watch the scene*

Yep, probably - same as with Zoe.

In Quna's defence: he does seem rather insistent on not wearing any pants.

Same as Adrian. It's kind of traditional for Guardians, eh?

This is a highly disturbing remark in the context of what I just said...

I see your point. Especially those plurals

[awakedream]

Undreaming can mean the awareness, that which is dreaming's opposite: the state of being conscious. Then, looking for unleashing the undreaming into the storytime(dreamworld), means trying to bring the consciousness while being in an unconscious state, and therefore to know that which is normally hidden to the conscious.
So, trying to be aware of the unknown is like knowing more and more, thus wanting to have as much power.
There was an empire still being at the peak of its power around 1933, which was the largest and had the greatest power in the course of world's history, and started to decline right after the World War 2. That also makes a perfect connection with Westhouse.

[Blue Kin]

Undreaming can mean the awareness, that which is dreaming's opposite: the state of being conscious. Then, looking for unleashing the undreaming into the storytime(dreamworld), means trying to bring the consciousness while being in an unconscious state, and therefore to know that which is normally hidden to the conscious.
So, trying to be aware of the unknown is like knowing more and more, thus wanting to have as much power.
There was an empire still being at the peak of its power around 1933, which was the largest and had the greatest power in the course of world's history, and started to decline right after the World War 2. That also makes a perfect connection with Westhouse.

Nazi Germany and 1933. I never noticed that. Interesting...

[Dmm]

Nazi Germany and 1933. I never noticed that. Interesting...

That could be, but I thought it was the British Empire. So awakedream what empire were you referring to?

[wandrew8]

The Nazi 'empire' was rather small, in the scheme of empires.

[awakedream]

I thought it was the British Empire.

Exactly. That's it.

[Fizzlebee]

What is the Undreaming?

A miserable pile of sexual frustrations.

[AstralTraveller]

oh my, what the fork was this discussion about? let's see...

the inevitable agreement?

nay. after a certain point, hugs (or attempts) make you just more pissed off.

Controlled? What does controlled have anything to do with it? Have you never struggled in your dreams trying in vain to express emotions as you would in real life but being somehow limited? That's exactly what Brian seemed to be doing. He seemed to feel the terror and understand the danger, but completely unable to let it out properly, although trying to.

ok, I understand you. after more than 1 year, it's quite a feat, isn't it?
and no, I've never had this kind of experience in dreams. my in-dream frustration usually consists of trying to get somewhere but not being able to reach the destination.

Do you think that could have any connection with our protagonists always starting out in half-naked? I guess the lack of clothes is a sign of super powers and important destiny... in TLJ world, at least

yes, that, and also the writers being of the voyeur-ish nature, and quite possibly sexually under-utilized

[Vincy85]

the monks talk about that the present of Brian Westhouse in the storytime will unchained the undreaming, i don't know if an human in the storytime(where i think only the soul could live, in fact Zoë arrive there after being in coma) will no accepted and the undreaming attack them.

A part that black "thing" that seems a chaos vortex, we saw in TLJ, it's hard to understand what undreaming is.

[Fizzlebee]

the monks talk about that the present of Brian Westhouse in the storytime will unchained the undreaming, i don't know if an human in the storytime(where i think only the soul could live, in fact Zoë arrive there after being in coma) will no accepted and the undreaming attack them.

It is the fact that they wanted that nasty little black thing to be released in the first place is the big problem here.

A part that black "thing" that seems a chaos vortex, we saw in TLJ, it's hard to understand what undreaming is.

It's been well-established by now--with Cortez's backing--that the Chaos Vortex was the result of the Vanguard's experimental wtfuckery. A cold motherfucker and a magic stormcloud whose hole expands with every contraction--sorry, chapter, is the result of their experiment. Sucked to be a Child of the Balance's labor force.

I don't know nuttin' 'bout all that aboriginal hooha.
Current running hypothesis: the Undreaming is the "nothingness" required to establish the "Denial of Nothingness". In contrast to the indestructibility of the material world's existence, the existing "nothingness" is the companion to the inevitability of all material things' ends.

That, or it eats dreams. It is the polymorphic version of Dementors that will spread psychosis among the happy, deluded purchasers of Dreamer Consoles. Not sure if want.